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Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2014 00:49:50 +0200
From: Aymeric Vitte <vitteaymeric@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [tor-talk] Micropayment embedded in circuit building? New idea?
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I read the proposal (and your other comments), but sorry, without even =

talking about payment issues here, who can be the thousand of relays in =

city and millions ("If such a new Tor network had a millions of relay =

nodes") in your physical area (that you should pick up as you wrote "it =

would be reasonable and safe to pick all relays within my current =

physical area", leading to the conclusion that all hops are in your =

physical area) ?

That's why I was assuming that you were obviously talking about a P2P =

system, but following strictly the Tor network rules (except the =

replacement of the dir servers by a DHT based system, which indeed is =

not so simple but not so complicate neither), the example of peersm is =

not about js or about highlighting it, but about a P2P system based on =

the Tor protocol not behaving very exactly like the Tor network (and yes =

the site requires js, not talking about the app which is a js one...)

And I was assuming that the peers are not mobile phones only but any =

other devices that have an interest in the network ("allowing this to =

run phone calls or torrents").

But OK, the issue of "how to make pay an anonymous user for services on =

top of/or related to an anonymizer network without deanonymizing him" is =

valid for plenty of use cases, including mine, I have not taken a look =

into this for now.

Regards,


Le 02/09/2014 22:37, carlo von lynX a =E9crit :
> On Mon, Sep 01, 2014 at 11:20:02PM +0200, Aymeric Vitte wrote:
>> First question is: why do you want people to pay for relays? That's
>> probably one of the best way to deanonymize you.
> Because I want to destroy the necessity for telcos to identify my
> mobile phone as I walk down the street. So if paying for relays is
> a way to deanonymize myself, at least it would be the second best.
> But maybe there is a way to get it right, and I don't want to give
> up hope on saving humanity from digital doom as yet.
>
>> Second is: why apparently you only envision to use/scale the Tor
>> network, and not the Tor protocol for a P2P system? Knowing that the
>> Tor network is absolutely not designed at all for P2P capabilities,
>> whether it's about torrents, telephony, etc
> Looks like you understood something like the opposite of what I meant.
>
>> Corollary is: Peersm project ([1],[2]), a P2P system using the Tor
>> protocol (and, marginally, the Tor network for non P2P exchanges, ie
>> web fetching)
>>
>> Please see comments below.
>>
>> [1] http://www.peersm.com
> This website does not work. Is it trying to require Javascript?
>
>> [2] https://github.com/Ayms/node-Tor#anonymous-serverless-p2p-inside-bro=
wsers---peersm-specs
> Tor in Javascript? Thank you, but this is totally off-topic.
> Have you looked at the law proposal? It is about making a
> strong relay node network, not a P2P network.
>
>> Why your physical area? To give a chance to locate where you are?
> The first hop knows where you are. The third hop doesn't.
> With a thousand relays just in one city it should be
> reasonably difficult to trace where your packets went.
>
>> The latency of the Tor network is different from the latency of a
>> P2P system using the Tor protocol
> Yes, that's why P2P is out of the question here.
>
>> Just replace it with a DHT based routing system where references to
>> peers are ephemeral and the distance to peers have nothing to do
>> with your location but allows you to detect compromised ones.
> Sounds like GNUnet, except for the word "just" that alludes to
> something being simple which I know it isn't.
>
>> And make sure that the peers can not freeride (unlike the bittorrent
>> protocol [3]), ie they must participate to the common P2P effort,
>> which is the case for peersm concepts since you get referenced by
>> others
> Not applicable.
>
>> I don't think it needs a lot of research, everything is already
>> there (then please feel free to redirect EC to peersm).
> I can imagine telcos being enthusiastic at the idea that phone
> calls are relayed down from antennas to mobile phones just to
> come back to the antenna because the mobile phone is merely
> acting as a P2P relay... reasonable use of wireless bandwidth.
> Not talking of the benefits in latency.
>
>

-- =

Peersm : http://www.peersm.com
torrent-live: https://github.com/Ayms/torrent-live
node-Tor : https://www.github.com/Ayms/node-Tor
GitHub : https://www.github.com/Ayms

-- =

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