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Subject: Re: [tor-talk] Illegal Activity As A Metric of Tor Security and
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Well, let's put this another way.  On a planet, approaching almost 7 billio=
n people, a network exists (Tor) that once had a substantial illegal conten=
t available (i.e. child porn, rape and snuff videos, etc.).  Then governmen=
ts, such as the UK government, announce GCHQ was to assist in cleaning up t=
he dark web.

Within a matter of months, not a single site can be found anywhere on the p=
lanet on the Tor network.

Then we also have Snowden, who informs of us PRISM.  An espionage program d=
esigned to provide a global view that was developed in parallel to Tor and =
it just so happens that this is Tor's Achilles heel.

Whether or not you accept the first part of the analysis is irrelevant, wha=
t really matters is the latter part and that Tor appears to be designed to =
integrate into the US espionage apparatus, rather than protect people from =
it.  Even when this is pointed out, no one makes any moves to correct the s=
ituation.

That pretty much tells everyone what they needed to know about Tor and its =
developers.

Regards,

Mark McCarron

> Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2014 21:02:24 +1000
> From: zen@freedbms.net
> To: tor-talk@lists.torproject.org
> Subject: Re: [tor-talk] Illegal Activity As A Metric of Tor Security and	=
Anonymity
> =

> OK, I'll bite :)
> =

> On 6/30/14, Juan <juan.g71@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Sun, 29 Jun 2014 08:31:20 -0400
> > Roger Dingledine <arma@mit.edu> wrote:
> >
> >> On Sun, Jun 29, 2014 at 12:19:56PM +0100, Mark McCarron wrote:
> >> > Given the scale of this obviousness, I can only assume that you're a
> >> >sock puppet for an intelligence agency who has started to panic about
> >> >the network going truly dark.
> >> >
> >> > Deal with it.
> >>
> >> Hi Mark,
> >>
> >> I've tried to tolerate the conspiracy theories / trolling here, since
> >> there are legitimate worries to be had about what attacks various
> >> adversaries may have come up with, even if the way you're expressing
> >> them isn't winning you many friends. But ad hominem attacks are not
> >> appropriate for this list, and they will get you removed from it if
> >
> >
> > 	@ Mark
> >
> > 	Looks like my case has finally and completely been made
> > 	for me, by Roger.
> >
> > 	You=B4ve been officially threatened by one of the =B4leaders=B4 of the
> > 	=B4tor family=B4 for (unlike me) politely point out tor=B4s obvious
> > 	flaws.
> >
> >
> > 	As a side note, I am suprised at the blatant contradicion
> >
> > 	Roger : =A8I've tried to tolerate the conspiracy theories /
> > 	trolling here=A8  <-- thats a 100% chemically pure =B4ad hominem=B4
> >
> > 	and then
> >
> > 	=A8But ad hominem attacks are not appropriate for this list=A8
> >
> > 	I rest my case...though I=B4ll throw a bit more evidence in =3DP
> >
> > 	=

> > 	=A8Mick=A8 wrote =A8Personally I shy away from feeding trolls.=A8
> > 	<--name calling/ad hominen.
> >
> > 	=

> > 	=A8zeenan=A8 wrote  =A8I suggest you save some dignity and
> > demonstrate a genuine attempt to contribute meaningfully in any way.=A8
> >
> > 	That line ^^^^^^ looks pretty insulting to me.
> >
> > 	And you also got an anonymous lunatic rant/attack from
> > 	antispam06@sent.at  (that was from a tor zealot who is  really
> > 	pissed off, it seems)
> >
> > J.
> =

> Juan, it's all very well for you to jump in now,
> but you are neglecting the OP - as in, the Original
> Post(er) - for reference, here it is in all its factual
> support and unambiguous and simple assertions
> (my comments are from me, I am not a mathematician,
> statistician nor Tor programmer):
> =

> On 6/26/14, Mark McCarron <mark.mccarron@live.co.uk> wrote:
> > I have been examining the number of what would normally
> > be deemed as illegal sites sites on Tor.
> =

> Statement 1: speaks to an anecdotal, one man,
> personal "study"; no facts; no references.
> =

> =

> > Eliminating the narcotics trade, as these tend to be
> > intelligence agency backed enterprises,
> =

> Assertion 2: anecdotal, "tend to be"; no facts;
> no references.
> =

> =

> > a serious decline has been noted
> > across the board.
> =

> Assertion 3: assumption or anecdote, "has been noted",
> "across the board"; no facts; no references.
> =

> =

> > This would tend to suggest that exposure is common place
> > and users no longer feel safe.
> =

> Conclusion 4: conclusion based on personal anecdote;
> no facts; no references.
> =

> =

> > In the more serious categories, such as child porn and violent
> > sexual material, no functioning open sites remain and many
> > of the sites that require registration are crippled.
> =

> Assertion 5: anecdote, no sites, no research presented;
> no facts; no references.
> =

> =

> > The entire planet has been scrubbed.
> =

> Statement 6: I call this emotionally-laced hand-waving;
> no facts; no references.
> =

> =

> > This, it would seem, indicates that Tor has been compromised
> > on a global scale with very little fanfare or moves to correct
> > the situation.
> =

> Conclusion 7: generic conclusion asserting possible ill intention
> on part of Tor devs - I call this "fishing by (implied) accusation",
> aka "hoping or assuming that [I] might flush out something
> devious by making (possibly personal) accusations";
> no facts; no references.
> =

> =

> > Does anyone have any insights into the problem?
> =

> And now McCarron calls for meaningful help/ insights/ responses?
> =

> Juan, _and_ McCarron, you MUST be kidding me!
> =

> =

> > Regards,
> > Mark McCarron 		 	   		=

> =

> =

> So don't get me wrong Juan, I'd love to know whether or not all these
> assertions, assumptions and anecdotes by McCarron are either true or
> false, or at least founded in some facts arising from something,
> anything that I could personally verify or test.
> =

> This is NOT the case here by McCarron! McCarron has provided NOTHING
> in this regard.
> =

> McCarron continued in like fashion throughout this thread.
> =

> Someone such as myself is unable to verify, prove or disprove or
> otherwise respond intelligently to ANYTHING McCarron has stated.
> =

> Someone such as myself is unable to gain ANY meaningful or testable
> data, information, conclusion or otherwise from what McCarron has
> stated!
> =

> Due to this all the above, someone such as myself is therefore unable
> to meaningfully contribute to McCarron's "DISCUSSION" because either:
> A) there is a bunch of assumed (by McCarron) knowledge which I don't
> have, and which McCarron has not provided even references for, or
> B) McCarron is doing nothing other than fishing by assertion, aka
> "hand-waving with a mission"!
> =

> Juan, given the challenges and responses brought to McCarron in this
> thread, McCarron has persistently failed to provide ANYTHING
> whatsoever that is researchable or verifiable or testable, to someone
> such as myself, to be able to in any way relate to or verify what he
> is saying in any sort of scientific manner.
> =

> Juan, the most McCarron put to us was some self-glorification "I am a
> contractor on multi-million dollar government security projects,
> listen to me I have wonderful anecdotes to share and I KNOW what I'm
> saying is true!" Or could be. Or ...
> =

> Juan, in the face of all the above, it is, in my personal estimation,
> a pretty fair call, at this point, to name McCarron's behaviour as
> troll-like. He may be genuine; he may be sincere; he may have
> legitimate points; he may have valid personal "intuition".
> =

> BUT, he has provided NOTHING in THIS thread, to someone such as
> myself, to be able to evaluate ANYTHING of what HE has said.
> =

> That, in my world, is a troll. I have been guilty of that myself in
> the past, and I thank those who have shown me patience in such
> circumstances.
> =

> Regards,
> Zenaan
> -- =

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