Delivery-Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2014 23:26:48 -0400
Return-Path: <tor-talk-bounces@lists.torproject.org>
X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.1 (2010-03-16) on moria.seul.org
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.9 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED,
	RP_MATCHES_RCVD autolearn=ham version=3.3.1
X-Original-To: archiver@seul.org
Delivered-To: archiver@seul.org
Received: from eugeni.torproject.org (eugeni.torproject.org [38.229.72.13])
	(using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits))
	(No client certificate requested)
	by khazad-dum.seul.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 11A9D1E09F3
	for <archiver@seul.org>; Wed, 25 Jun 2014 23:26:47 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from eugeni.torproject.org (localhost [127.0.0.1])
	by eugeni.torproject.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F17622F53F;
	Thu, 26 Jun 2014 03:26:43 +0000 (UTC)
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1])
 by eugeni.torproject.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 193762EE7B
 for <tor-talk@lists.torproject.org>; Thu, 26 Jun 2014 03:17:18 +0000 (UTC)
X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at eugeni.torproject.org
Received: from eugeni.torproject.org ([127.0.0.1])
 by localhost (eugeni.torproject.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024)
 with ESMTP id RsX6SEqGibTU for <tor-talk@lists.torproject.org>;
 Thu, 26 Jun 2014 03:17:18 +0000 (UTC)
Received: from DUB004-OMC3S7.hotmail.com (dub004-omc3s7.hotmail.com
 [157.55.2.16])
 (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AES128-SHA256 (128/128 bits))
 (Client did not present a certificate)
 by eugeni.torproject.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A97AD2DC42
 for <tor-talk@lists.torproject.org>; Thu, 26 Jun 2014 03:17:17 +0000 (UTC)
Received: from DUB121-W16 ([157.55.2.7]) by DUB004-OMC3S7.hotmail.com with
 Microsoft SMTPSVC(7.5.7601.22701); Wed, 25 Jun 2014 20:17:13 -0700
X-TMN: [v8heCCf6VB2Imjw28dBiYT5B1OpdmaCK]
X-Originating-Email: [mark.mccarron@live.co.uk]
Message-ID: <DUB121-W1602424B2673FF14097129C8180@phx.gbl>
From: Mark McCarron <mark.mccarron@live.co.uk>
To: "tor-talk@lists.torproject.org" <tor-talk@lists.torproject.org>
Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2014 04:17:13 +0100
Importance: Normal
In-Reply-To: <53AB742E.5000400@riseup.net>
References: <DUB121-W32E5B8525EB5756FB0DD73C8190@phx.gbl>, ,
 <53AB3C75.4020105@gmx.com>, <DUB121-W401DDF2EB0B4F36357ADA2C8190@phx.gbl>,
 <53AB742E.5000400@riseup.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
X-OriginalArrivalTime: 26 Jun 2014 03:17:13.0657 (UTC)
 FILETIME=[200F8290:01CF90ED]
X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.15
Subject: Re: [tor-talk] Illegal Activity As A Metric of Tor Security and
 Anonymity
X-BeenThere: tor-talk@lists.torproject.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15
Precedence: list
Reply-To: tor-talk@lists.torproject.org
List-Id: "all discussion about theory, design,
 and development of Onion Routing" <tor-talk.lists.torproject.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/tor-talk>, 
 <mailto:tor-talk-request@lists.torproject.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <http://lists.torproject.org/pipermail/tor-talk/>
List-Post: <mailto:tor-talk@lists.torproject.org>
List-Help: <mailto:tor-talk-request@lists.torproject.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-talk>, 
 <mailto:tor-talk-request@lists.torproject.org?subject=subscribe>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Errors-To: tor-talk-bounces@lists.torproject.org
Sender: "tor-talk" <tor-talk-bounces@lists.torproject.org>

Hidden hosting and general usage of Tor are, in functional terms, the same thing.  I remember the issue with Freedom hosting, but that is long ago now and this downward trend is still continuing.  So, no, I am not buying that this is a product of people being spooked.  Many of these sites arrived or remained even after the Freedom Hosting bust.

I think everyone needs to stop looking for excuses and start examining why this is happening and fix it.  Otherwise, this project is a waste of time.

Regards,

Mark McCarron

> Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2014 19:15:26 -0600
> From: mirimir@riseup.net
> To: tor-talk@lists.torproject.org
> Subject: Re: [tor-talk] Illegal Activity As A Metric of Tor Security and	Anonymity
> 
> On 06/25/2014 03:56 PM, Mark McCarron wrote:
> > Basically, I keep a track of site numbers year-on-year, site
> > availability from 3rd party monitoring and read comments on forums
> > and chat.  From what I can gather, most of these sites were suspected
> > of being honeypots due to their tendency to remove anything
> > rape/violence related.  That is, they appeared sanitised in some way.
> > Then all of sudden, they started disappearing.  Some were connected
> > with major busts of hosting providers, others without any indication
> > what happened.
> 
> I believe that most of the hidden-service sites that you allude to were
> on Freedom Hosting. Also, recall that the Freedom Hosting operation
> involved the deanonymization of many site operators and visitors. As a
> result, many other sites were likely compromised in cascade.
> 
> > Whilst it may be good in some sense, it states that Tor is failing in
> > its primary task of promoting freedom through anonymity.  In fact, it
> > would seem that Tor is having the opposite effect, silencing everyone
> > through fear.  Certainly, some of this comes down to poor security
> > practices, but that cannot explain the scale of what has happened.
> > 
> > So, the question remains, what is wrong with the Anonymity and
> > Security of Tor?  The software is compromised in some fashion and we
> > need to understand this.
> 
> You conflate "Tor" with hidden services. Hosting hidden services
> securely is indeed a nontrivial endeavor. But that doesn't speak to the
> anonymity that Tor provides for its users.
> 
> > Regards,
> > 
> > Mark McCarron
> 
> <SNIP>
> 
> -- 
> tor-talk mailing list - tor-talk@lists.torproject.org
> To unsubscribe or change other settings go to
> https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-talk
 		 	   		  
-- 
tor-talk mailing list - tor-talk@lists.torproject.org
To unsubscribe or change other settings go to
https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-talk

