Delivery-Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2014 16:12:03 -0400
Return-Path: <tor-talk-bounces@lists.torproject.org>
X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.1 (2010-03-16) on moria.seul.org
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.9 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED,
	RP_MATCHES_RCVD autolearn=ham version=3.3.1
X-Original-To: archiver@seul.org
Delivered-To: archiver@seul.org
Received: from eugeni.torproject.org (eugeni.torproject.org [38.229.72.13])
	(using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits))
	(No client certificate requested)
	by khazad-dum.seul.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 88A311E0C3F
	for <archiver@seul.org>; Tue,  1 Jul 2014 16:12:01 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from eugeni.torproject.org (localhost [127.0.0.1])
	by eugeni.torproject.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5740A2E769;
	Tue,  1 Jul 2014 20:11:59 +0000 (UTC)
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1])
 by eugeni.torproject.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BE9A42E2D1
 for <tor-talk@lists.torproject.org>; Tue,  1 Jul 2014 20:06:23 +0000 (UTC)
X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at eugeni.torproject.org
Received: from eugeni.torproject.org ([127.0.0.1])
 by localhost (eugeni.torproject.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024)
 with ESMTP id dLLcMqrhAIIw for <tor-talk@lists.torproject.org>;
 Tue,  1 Jul 2014 20:06:23 +0000 (UTC)
Received: from DUB004-OMC3S13.hotmail.com (dub004-omc3s13.hotmail.com
 [157.55.2.22])
 (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AES128-SHA256 (128/128 bits))
 (Client did not present a certificate)
 by eugeni.torproject.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 42D272BECB
 for <tor-talk@lists.torproject.org>; Tue,  1 Jul 2014 20:06:23 +0000 (UTC)
Received: from DUB121-W15 ([157.55.2.7]) by DUB004-OMC3S13.hotmail.com with
 Microsoft SMTPSVC(7.5.7601.22701); Tue, 1 Jul 2014 13:06:19 -0700
X-TMN: [IY6oPXZdEFLni2SDhX7hqYl+lpi+Q6fY]
X-Originating-Email: [mark.mccarron@live.co.uk]
Message-ID: <DUB121-W15270EEEFC932E3E73ED4FC8070@phx.gbl>
From: Mark McCarron <mark.mccarron@live.co.uk>
To: "tor-talk@lists.torproject.org" <tor-talk@lists.torproject.org>
Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2014 21:06:19 +0100
Importance: Normal
In-Reply-To: <20140701161840.00004112@unknown>
References: <53b16e92.4bb.dd547700.2a1fac89@t-3.net>,
 <20140630181150.579a117b@gate.rlogin.net>,
 <DUB121-W340733C713F86F8887940DC8040@phx.gbl>,
 <53B234B4.5010705@cyblings.on.ca>,
 <DUB121-W87B38C15F614AFC2BF53BC8070@phx.gbl>,
 <272befac-46cd-4eb4-b1d8-73aa517f590d@email.android.com>,
 <DUB121-W257E25780AF7E06F86145CC8070@phx.gbl>,
 <20140701161840.00004112@unknown>
MIME-Version: 1.0
X-OriginalArrivalTime: 01 Jul 2014 20:06:19.0789 (UTC)
 FILETIME=[EC6ED3D0:01CF9567]
X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.15
Subject: Re: [tor-talk] Illegal Activity As A Metric of Tor Security and
 Anonymity
X-BeenThere: tor-talk@lists.torproject.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15
Precedence: list
Reply-To: tor-talk@lists.torproject.org
List-Id: "all discussion about theory, design,
 and development of Onion Routing" <tor-talk.lists.torproject.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/tor-talk>, 
 <mailto:tor-talk-request@lists.torproject.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <http://lists.torproject.org/pipermail/tor-talk/>
List-Post: <mailto:tor-talk@lists.torproject.org>
List-Help: <mailto:tor-talk-request@lists.torproject.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-talk>, 
 <mailto:tor-talk-request@lists.torproject.org?subject=subscribe>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Errors-To: tor-talk-bounces@lists.torproject.org
Sender: "tor-talk" <tor-talk-bounces@lists.torproject.org>

Juan,

Traffic analysis depends on visibility.  Tor attempts to obfuscate the sour=
ce of a connection by proxying packets through a network, or chain, of syst=
ems.  If an attacker has visibility of the entire process, or even just two=
 ends of that communication, then a range of information can be inferred.

To make an inference requires relating two or more distinct pieces of infor=
mation (data points).  To undermine traffic analysis (counter-traffic analy=
sis), or any form of analysis, we must first reduce the number of available=
 pieces of information to just one (a single data point).

Hosting sites internally within Tor does exactly that, when it comes to a c=
orrelation attack.  The government has only one piece of the puzzle, that y=
our machine sent a packet.  They need a second piece (i.e. where that packe=
t went) in order to infer that you were looking at a particular hidden serv=
ice.  Then they need additional information of what that site was in order =
to infer what you were looking at.  So, what we can see here is that for ea=
ch inference we require an additional piece of information (data point).

Thus, if you want to understand the level of potential exposure of any soft=
ware, be it Tor or Freenet (etc), then quantify the information (data point=
s) available and what inferences can be made from them.  =


Then annoy the hell out of the developers until they eliminate each data po=
int.

Regards,

Mark McCarron

> Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2014 16:18:40 -0300
> From: juan.g71@gmail.com
> To: tor-talk@lists.torproject.org
> Subject: Re: [tor-talk] Illegal Activity As A Metric of Tor Security and =
Anonymity
> =

> On Tue, 1 Jul 2014 18:32:27 +0100
> Mark McCarron <mark.mccarron@live.co.uk> wrote:
> =

> > Alex,
> > =

> > You must be living in a fantasy land.  The problem still remains, Tor
> > is vulnerable to a global view and that global view exists according
> > to Snowden.  Further, it would appear that Tor was designed to fit
> > into that global view and provide US intelligence with the locations
> > of both users and hidden services, whilst pretending to provide
> > anonymity.
> > =

> > I don't see anyone denying it.  Do you?
> =

> 	Well, Roger Dingledine  said =

> =

> 	=A8I've tried to tolerate the conspiracy theories / trolling here,
> 	since there are legitimate worries to be had about what attacks
> 	various adversaries may have come up with,=A8
> =

> 	Keywords being =A8legitimate worries=A8.
> =

> 	I find it funny(entertaining) that whereas key tor people are
> 	willing to admit that the picture isnt exactly rosy, =

> =

> 	www.ohmygodel.com/publications/usersrouted-ccs13.pdf =

> =

> 	several voices in  this list seem to be pretending
> 	exactly the opposite.  And some of them candidly admit =A8 I am
> 	not a mathematician, statistician nor Tor programmer=A8 (Zenaan) =

> =

> 	----------------
> =

> 	Question for the experts out there, both real and imagined. =

> =

> 	Is freenet=B4s distributed data storage more robust than tor=B4s
> 	model? (assume tor is being used only as storage)
> =

> 	Or is freenet just as susceptible to traffic analysis as tor
> 	is? =

> =

> 	=

> =

> J
> =

> =

> =

> =

> 	=

> 	=

> =

> =

> 	=

> =

> =

> =

> =

> =

> =

> =

> =

> =

> 	=

> =

> =

> =

> =

> > =

> > Its been 6 days already.
> > =

> > Regards,
> > =

> > Mark McCarron
> > =

> > > From: fuerschpiu@gmail.com
> > > Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2014 18:39:13 +0200
> > > To: tor-talk@lists.torproject.org
> > > Subject: Re: [tor-talk] Illegal Activity As A Metric of Tor
> > > Security and	Anonymity
> > > =

> > > Please Mccarron, =

> > > =

> > > The discussion is dead. You killed it yourself by not adding
> > > anything meaningful as far as I have seen. You just repeat yourself
> > > again and again as if it's a mantra. You got statistics to back up
> > > your claims? Good - show them! You got the script you used to track
> > > the onions? Awesome! Show it so we can see for ourselves and use it
> > > too! =

> > > =

> > > As others pointed out already: give us something to work with, else
> > > you can just pack up and troll another list as far as I am
> > > concerned. =

> > > =

> > > -- =

> > > tor-talk mailing list - tor-talk@lists.torproject.org
> > > To unsubscribe or change other settings go to
> > > https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-talk
> >  		 	   		  =

> =

> -- =

> tor-talk mailing list - tor-talk@lists.torproject.org
> To unsubscribe or change other settings go to
> https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-talk
 		 	   		  =

-- =

tor-talk mailing list - tor-talk@lists.torproject.org
To unsubscribe or change other settings go to
https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-talk

