Delivery-Date: Mon, 08 Feb 2016 15:17:19 -0500
Return-Path: <tor-talk-bounces@lists.torproject.org>
X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.1 (2010-03-16) on moria.seul.org
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.1 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,DKIM_SIGNED,
	RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED,T_DKIM_INVALID,T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD autolearn=ham version=3.3.1
X-Original-To: archiver@seul.org
Delivered-To: archiver@seul.org
Received: from eugeni.torproject.org (eugeni.torproject.org [38.229.72.13])
	(using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits))
	(No client certificate requested)
	by khazad-dum.seul.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9372E1E0CF2;
	Mon,  8 Feb 2016 15:17:17 -0500 (EST)
Received: from eugeni.torproject.org (localhost [127.0.0.1])
	by eugeni.torproject.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 655D9392CF;
	Mon,  8 Feb 2016 20:17:13 +0000 (UTC)
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1])
 by eugeni.torproject.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7F4EE3925E
 for <tor-talk@lists.torproject.org>; Mon,  8 Feb 2016 20:17:10 +0000 (UTC)
X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at 
Received: from eugeni.torproject.org ([127.0.0.1])
 by localhost (eugeni.torproject.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024)
 with ESMTP id gpTvBPjHKDxn for <tor-talk@lists.torproject.org>;
 Mon,  8 Feb 2016 20:17:10 +0000 (UTC)
Received: from mail-oi0-x22c.google.com (mail-oi0-x22c.google.com
 [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4003:c06::22c])
 (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits))
 (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com",
 Issuer "Google Internet Authority G2" (not verified))
 by eugeni.torproject.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5D1E139254
 for <tor-talk@lists.torproject.org>; Mon,  8 Feb 2016 20:17:10 +0000 (UTC)
Received: by mail-oi0-x22c.google.com with SMTP id m82so2779247oif.2
 for <tor-talk@lists.torproject.org>; Mon, 08 Feb 2016 12:17:10 -0800 (PST)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed;
 d=literati-org.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623;
 h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to
 :cc:content-type;
 bh=NI02kjczCt6usXb0eho3LANFolMlLmsMdrP5PfibmXM=;
 b=apS/6lDOrsEFNZ82/mU09Q7BLMMQx24YGlQMxOk/000mOu386LXBEmyFHSX+95LgOj
 WGl/qihiqNNkMO17KcOwa4SRiNI+IvVMZ2BUMYbKCagmSCaENNAuGMs1PQRzepuXJi3+
 +ULemZ6uKshwSKBMJLRtj0F5zxo3XP8X12e5SRDJ7npZbPzJWjnGcof8m+wmNteGUtHQ
 h0E9Di+rRcHsdXjuQOv/5V59vQRjhggXeO/BdTgxzPFzmeZjyrQ8jfJnrkF1+UChAJsn
 wKgnakb2k/pZjMxIBcPx455KNi7vFEb519op3GO/ea7ibywZkjO3HJNqlKkAJI73j6Nm
 M84g==
X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed;
 d=1e100.net; s=20130820;
 h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date
 :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-type;
 bh=NI02kjczCt6usXb0eho3LANFolMlLmsMdrP5PfibmXM=;
 b=T8RfVVSiEDvdlaDr+3KA5VTFx9FxLhxQEN9vqlrCL6Jt9GmV1jwefmNopXqgnVw6Sw
 i3+Z5NjWfpAAmY1+f1t2zh64gOKOt9gwy+zrC2TlLye895tAT3kShMnAz/8V36vy429E
 cbit/rXJDd+Oa69Siv9fmhfpMsGvxFkIi81jmZ2n2nvn14tvttaZ4EBWsLghe3gFXdLS
 19juTkr8oXH7zkNdcCEwgfcydaT3fsNSlVSbaLSzsfkxk9fTi9rVQ82r4znyVdHvdqoI
 UahPuyO8H6L7ZoJKHO1PbtJGUIUGNf7W2vZk+filBgT7l9bINwjxaK5+fJBWyJP7n0QF
 ldoQ==
X-Gm-Message-State: AG10YORTsHCCVFGFjF9c7w4Sz+h/pRJ8ia0FmNfGxFwTrW87CKVKY5anykDoX/ONVy+rz5Kgnlhc39yZjyxlEg==
X-Received: by 10.202.64.70 with SMTP id n67mr586615oia.109.1454962627727;
 Mon, 08 Feb 2016 12:17:07 -0800 (PST)
MIME-Version: 1.0
References: <N1P-m3tG4rDdFu@Safe-mail.net>
In-Reply-To: <N1P-m3tG4rDdFu@Safe-mail.net>
From: Sean Lynch <seanl@literati.org>
Date: Mon, 08 Feb 2016 20:16:58 +0000
Message-ID: <CAHKdp-me3o=vZgX6M6pdwwwm90FEgNnfoXmOfe=xXUcki6sqSA@mail.gmail.com>
To: wirelesswarrior@safe-mail.net
X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.15
Cc: cypherpunks@cpunks.org, tor-talk@lists.torproject.org
Subject: Re: [tor-talk] Using SDR
X-BeenThere: tor-talk@lists.torproject.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15
Precedence: list
Reply-To: tor-talk@lists.torproject.org
List-Id: "all discussion about theory, design,
 and development of Onion Routing" <tor-talk.lists.torproject.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/tor-talk>, 
 <mailto:tor-talk-request@lists.torproject.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <http://lists.torproject.org/pipermail/tor-talk/>
List-Post: <mailto:tor-talk@lists.torproject.org>
List-Help: <mailto:tor-talk-request@lists.torproject.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-talk>, 
 <mailto:tor-talk-request@lists.torproject.org?subject=subscribe>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Errors-To: tor-talk-bounces@lists.torproject.org
Sender: "tor-talk" <tor-talk-bounces@lists.torproject.org>

On Mon, Feb 8, 2016 at 10:51 AM <wirelesswarrior@safe-mail.net> wrote:

> -------- Original Message --------
> From: Sean Lynch <seanl@literati.org>
> Apparently from: cypherpunks-bounces@cpunks.org
> To: tor-talk@lists.torproject.org
> Cc: cypherpunks@cpunks.org
> Subject: Re: [tor-talk] Using SDR
> Date: Sat, 06 Feb 2016 20:40:21 +0000
>
>
> On Fri, Feb 5, 2016 at 7:23 PM coderman <coderman@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On 2/5/16, Sean Lynch <seanl@literati.org> wrote:
>>
> > ... Radio is being used right now to provide anonymity, but it's being
>> used[1]
>> > to hide endpoints similar to the duct-taped payphone trick depicted in
>> > Hackers, in order to avoid attacks like the one used to capture Ross
>> > Ulbricht without giving him a chance to wipe his computer (they snuck up
>> > behind him and pinned his arms, but they would have just rushed him had
>> > that not been possible). If you use a device like the ProxyHam and you
>> sit
>> > somewhere where you can see it, there's a reasonable chance you'd spot
>> > someone who's trying to find you, giving you a chance to hit your panic
>> > button and escape.
>>
>> this assumes you're keeping it under constant supervision, of course :P
>>
> Indeed. Having a spotter there is probably the best solution.
>
> Alternatively, if you aren't too clumbsy or forgetful, is to have a some
> sort of hidden/innocuous band tied to you and to your device (e.g., a
> laptop) that when pulled too hard (like a grenade pin) starts the wiping
> process. So if you are jumped/pinned the process starts before the
> attackers realize it.
>
>
Yep, a dead-man switch of some kind is a good idea regardless of what other
techniques you're using.


> A related LPI method is to use a separate, well disciplined, carrier
>> (in-band, co-located or not) that  participant devices listen to and use
>> the sync their clocks and/or their codes. If used carefully Eve won't know
>> about it and will find it too difficult to synch in time catch Alice and
>> Bob's comms.
>>
>
>>
Sure, but if you have a very long (or effectively infinite) PN sequence,
your carrier needs to be structured enough to recover some large counter.
GPS qualifies, as probably does WWV and its non-US brethren.


> How do you train out of band? By modelling the environment? That's an
> interesting thought, and I suspect Google Earth has enough data to be able
> to do it in a lot of places. Are you aware of free or inexpensive software
> packages for doing this?
>
>
>> synthetic aperature millimeter wave vision systems are also pushing
>> along this boundary, for cross-pollination of suitable phased sync'ed
>> UWB MIMO signal processing.
>>
>
>
> Aren't you just talking phased array for something like this though? Or do
> you mean using phase information from the receive antennas to reconstruct
> the environment rather than using phasing at the transmit side to steer
> your beam? That's a very interesting idea since it can give you a 360
> degree view with no need to steer your beam, in the same way that some
> blind humans can use clicks to get a picture of their entire environment.
> (I use humans and not bats because I think bat sonar is pretty directional,
> whereas human ears can localize sound quite precisely without any need to
> turn one's head.)
>
> Beam stearing be accomplished much cheaper than via a phased array using
> nearfield plasmas to block or steer the beam. For example, a vertical
> cluster of flourescent tubes surrounding a simple dipole can, with proper
> circuitry, quickly switched so that only one of the tubes is "off"
> (transparent) at a time allowing incoming/outgoing signasl to only
> propagate in that direction. The other tubes are "on" and reflect the
> signals.
>
>
Sure, if you don't care about MIMO, there are lots of ways to steer your
beam using relatively cheap circuitry. You can have multiple
transmit/receive antennas and just adjust their relative phase. AIUI this
is how the LoJack locators operate. Switching reflectors on and off
independently as you suggest here would allow multiple beams, though their
relative phase would not be adjustable. It all goes toward the goal of
minimizing the amount of energy you emit that isn't directed toward the
receiver, though.

Thanks for posting the latest version of your slides. I read what I think
was an earlier version previously. I am working on upgrading my amateur
radio license, so soon I will get some experience with some of the weak
signal modes you talk about.
-- 
tor-talk mailing list - tor-talk@lists.torproject.org
To unsubscribe or change other settings go to
https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-talk

